Rendering crash with Assemblies

[elpin]

Hello everyone,

We recently bought Power Translators and have a slight problem...

We imported some files from IGS to 3dsmax and try to render. But the render always crash at the object preparing stage. The crash occurs when preparing an object which is an Assembly that contains more than 1 object. It will crash only if the assembly contains 2 or more objects.

We tried to figure out a way how to render those by changing the render settings, but the only solution we found is really just extracting the assemblies.

We are working with 3ds max 2011 and the latest power translators pro version.

[PiXeL_MoNKeY]

What if you set the Assemblies to "Render Viewport Mesh" under the Rendering Approximation?

-Eric

[nPower_Dave]

Hello everyone,

We recently bought Power Translators and have a slight problem...

We imported some files from IGS to 3dsmax and try to render. But the render always crash at the object preparing stage. The crash occurs when preparing an object which is an Assembly that contains more than 1 object. It will crash only if the assembly contains 2 or more objects.

We tried to figure out a way how to render those by changing the render settings, but the only solution we found is really just extracting the assemblies.

We are working with 3ds max 2011 and the latest power translators pro version.

Hi Elpin,

Are you using the new 6.3 version? That should handle the assemblies fine. In our regression test, we have numerous assemblies that we test with. You could also send us the models.

Wait...I just noticed...are you running 3ds Max 2011? We haven't yet released the version that supports 2011. You are going to have problems using the 6.3 version on 3ds Max 2011.

[kimgar]

ummm, is 6.3 is out? or just by request?

[PiXeL_MoNKeY]

6.3 is posted on the Customer Download page.

-Eric

[elpin]

What if you set the Assemblies to "Render Viewport Mesh" under the Rendering Approximation?

-Eric

Yup, then the render works, but any attempt to change the view mesh resolution of the assembly result in a crash :-(


Hi Elpin,

Are you using the new 6.3 version? That should handle the assemblies fine. In our regression test, we have numerous assemblies that we test with. You could also send us the models.

Wait...I just noticed...are you running 3ds Max 2011? We haven't yet released the version that supports 2011. You are going to have problems using the 6.3 version on 3ds Max 2011.

Oh I see. We will have to wait for the 2011 release of Power Nurbs then...

[PiXeL_MoNKeY]

You are going to have problems using the 6.3 version on 3ds Max 2011.What are the problems with using 6.3 in 2011? I know about the B.ody compatibility issues that started with the Connection Extension, but is there anything else?

-Eric

[nPower_Dave]

What are the problems with using 6.3 in 2011? I know about the B.ody compatibility issues that started with the Connection Extension, but is there anything else?

-Eric

Some of the APIs are different. We had to recompile for the 2011 version, so for instance that render crash reported on this thread may be caused by incompatibility between 6.3 and 2011.

[elpin]

I'm sorry to report that the crashing bug with assemblies is not solved in version 7.0 for 2011.

Could the reason be that the data was imported into 2011 by version 6.3?

EDIT: Is it possible to create a script that would go over all the objects in the scene and extract the assemblies? That would help a LOT.

[nPower_Dave]

I'm sorry to report that the crashing bug with assemblies is not solved in version 7.0 for 2011.

Could the reason be that the data was imported into 2011 by version 6.3?

EDIT: Is it possible to create a script that would go over all the objects in the scene and extract the assemblies? That would help a LOT.

Hi Elpin,

Can you send us the model so that we can fix the problem that is still there? We're able to render assemblies, but we don't have the model that is giving you trouble.

[nPower_Michael]

Could the reason be that the data was imported into 2011 by version 6.3?
It is possible; it could be tested in the following way: do a fresh import of some assembly file using 7.0, and see if that also crashes during renders in your environment. If it does not, try reverting to 6.3, importing the same test assembly, and see if it crashes. If it does, save out to file, reinstall 7.0, open the saved max file, and see if that render also crashes. Ideally the test import file used would be one that you could send our way if the crash can be replicated in either of the 7.0 test cases mentioned above.

[elpin]

So I was trying to isolate the crashing assemblies but was very much unsuccessful :-(

Every time I had a render crashing on a certain object (I checked it always crashes on this one to avoid any randomness) I then deleted all the other objects in the scene and saved the file. But then I found out that it doesn't crash anymore. When this crashing assembly is alone in a scene it just doesn't crash. And if I delete only half of all the other objects in the scene the render is crashing on a different object.

In all cases of crashes the objects are assemblies with more than 1 object inside and the crashing is solved by extracting the objects. That's so much for a certain predictability and rule in this.
After isolating those crashing assemblies into separate files they don't crash anymore so I'm afraid it's impossible to debug right?

[nPower_Michael]

I'm afraid it's impossible to debug
It may be a trickier bug to squash, but I'd like to believe that no software bug is impervious. If possible/convenient, can you send us the multi-assembly .max file that crashes consistently on render for you on 7.0?

On a side note, as far as scripted Assembly extraction goes, the main problem is that we haven't exposed the Explode function to MaxScript. However, at some point I'll try to post a script that may at least speed the process of manual extraction up.

[nPower_Dave]

So I was trying to isolate the crashing assemblies but was very much unsuccessful :-(

Every time I had a render crashing on a certain object (I checked it always crashes on this one to avoid any randomness) I then deleted all the other objects in the scene and saved the file. But then I found out that it doesn't crash anymore. When this crashing assembly is alone in a scene it just doesn't crash. And if I delete only half of all the other objects in the scene the render is crashing on a different object.

In all cases of crashes the objects are assemblies with more than 1 object inside and the crashing is solved by extracting the objects. That's so much for a certain predictability and rule in this.
After isolating those crashing assemblies into separate files they don't crash anymore so I'm afraid it's impossible to debug right?

Hi Elpin,

Please send us an example assembly that crashes.

[nPower_Michael]

Here's the script I mentioned earlier. The following script may make it easier to quickly explode multiple assemblies. After importing all assemblies, run this script; it should select an assembly, go to modify mode, and prepare the DoNextDelOld() function. Explode the assembly, then use the DoNextDelOld() function(), which will delete the exploded assembly and select the next one. Rinse and repeat until no assemblies remain (the DoNextDelOld() will stop selecting objects). By binding the code inside DoNextDelOld() to a hotkey or tool button, this process can be made significantly faster than manually selecting each assembly (if dealing with many many assemblies). Please note that this script has not been heavily tested; it is provided on a "use at your own risk" basis.


-- A simple struct for selecting one scene node at a time in a list of nodes.
struct NodeSelector
(
nodeArray = #(), nodeIndex = 1,

-- Loads a list of nodes for traversal. For example, calling
-- "thisInstance.LoadNodes objects" will load every node
-- in the scene-graph in preparation for traversal. See
-- SelectNextNode for doing the traversal.
fn LoadNodes nodeCollection =
(
nodeArray = nodeCollection as array
),

-- Selects next node in the traversal list and returns true, if there
-- is a next node. Otherwise returns false.
fn SelectNextNode =
(
if nodeIndex < 1 do ( return false )
if nodeIndex > nodeArray.count do ( return false )
select nodeArray[nodeIndex]
nodeIndex = nodeIndex + 1
return true
),

-- Resets the current node to the first in the list, so that the next
-- SelectNextNode() call will select the first node (beginning a new
-- traversal).
fn ResetTraversal =
(
nodeIndex = 1
)
)

-- dirty func to delete current assembly and select next
fn DoNextDelOld =
(
-- HOTKEY 2 BEGIN --
for obj in (selection as array) do (
if isKindOf obj Pwr_Assembly do (
delete obj
)
)
trav.SelectNextNode()
max modify mode -- activates the Modify task panel
-- HOTKEY 2 END --
)

-- this prepares the selector object for assembly traversal and
-- selects the first object
-- HOTKEY 1 BEGIN --
arr = #()
for obj in objects do (
if isKindOf obj Pwr_Assembly do (
append arr obj
)
)
trav = NodeSelector()
trav.LoadNodes arr
trav.SelectNextNode()
max modify mode -- activates the Modify task panel
-- HOTKEY 1 END --

[elpin]

Thanks Michael! I'll give it a try.

I will also try to send you guys a file with multiple assemblies which do indeed crash, but so far didn't have a time to make it. The files we use are very big and under NDA I'm afraid, so I can't give you these straight away.

[joelhowe]

Hey guys:

I imported geometry into max 2010 using the 6.? version tool and now opening in max 2011 with V7.0 is giving me trouble. I crash instantly upon rendering any time I render any geometry in an Power Assembly. If I explode all objects and delete the assemblies, I am able to render and things work normally. As long as the assemblies are hidden, they are fine too. It is only when they retopologize for the render?

I have tried it on a few other different geometries from different projects and it looks like they are having the same problem. V6 imports with assemblies are crashing on render in V7.

Is there a way to blow out these assemblies automatically? I already fixed some geometry and applied materials, so re-importing these isn't an option. I can't send the source files (confidentiality issues) but am very much looking forward to a fix before I have to back to older files?

No troubles rendering fresh imports (imports using V7).

Joel

[nPower_Dave]

Hey guys:

I imported geometry into max 2010 using the 6.? version tool and now opening in max 2011 with V7.0 is giving me trouble. I crash instantly upon rendering any time I render any geometry in an Power Assembly. If I explode all objects and delete the assemblies, I am able to render and things work normally. As long as the assemblies are hidden, they are fine too. It is only when they retopologize for the render?

I have tried it on a few other different geometries from different projects and it looks like they are having the same problem. V6 imports with assemblies are crashing on render in V7.

Is there a way to blow out these assemblies automatically? I already fixed some geometry and applied materials, so re-importing these isn't an option. I can't send the source files (confidentiality issues) but am very much looking forward to a fix before I have to back to older files?

No troubles rendering fresh imports (imports using V7).

Joel

Hi Joel,

We are looking into the problem (working on fixing it). In the mean time, you can blow away the assemblies through the following process (actually I recommend the process anyway).

1) After import, click on the EXPLODE button (with explode to reference option).
2) After exploding, delete the assembly (which should already be selected).

That way you should be able to work with the exploded parts in the assembly.

[joelhowe]

Looking forward to the fix. I am blowing away the assemblies for the urgent project, but they are killing me with the subassembly structure! Thanks for the update!

Joel

[nPower_Dave]

Looking forward to the fix. I am blowing away the assemblies for the urgent project, but they are killing me with the subassembly structure! Thanks for the update!

Joel

Sorry Joel. We'll get a fix out soon (I hope).

[nPower_erik]

Hey Joel,

Unfortunately you may need to send us some test files because I was unable to reproduce the crash. It may have to do with a specific format type. I tried testing with Step models by bringing them into a 2010 64 bit 6.? version and saving them out to open them in 2011 7.0. I'll send you an email as well.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

Erik Toraason
erik@npowersoftware.com

[joelhowe]

Erik, everything I have right now is under NDA. I will see if I can get permission from my clients, but that will take some time.

Joel

[nPower_erik]

Hey Joel,

Thats fine. We make sure to delete customer models when they request it. Otherwise we ask them if we can use them for regression testing purposes. Either way I completely understand.

However, for testing I imported an assembly into Max 2010 6.x x64 and saved it out as a .Max file. I then opened it in Max 2011 7.0 x64 and had no problems rendering. It was a simple model but I did not explode it from a pwr_Assembly.

Anyways I was hoping it was something we could duplicate easily. Please let me know if I left out some steps that may be contributing to the problem or if you get any response from your customer.

Thanks much.

Erik Toraason
erik@npowersoftware.com

[peterhsieh]

We are fixing an issue with Assemblies crashing on render, and I believe that they should address your problems as well. see this post (http://www.npowersoftware.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4807&postcount=7)

We can't track down your test files, but I would suggest testing them out once we release the fix.

I'll update once the fix is released.

[nPower_erik]

Hello All,

Just wanted to let you know that we replaced the builds online for both 2010 and 2011, 32 and 64 bit, demo and release. We will try and replace the Viewers as well as 2009 next week.

Let us now if you have any issues.


Erik

[nPower_erik]

Hello All,

Just wanted to let you know that the 2010 and 2011 Viewers have been updated.

For those of you with render farms that were having issues with assemblies, you might want to check it out.

Erik

[elpin]

Could it be that the Power Nurbs plugin has the same problem as 3dsmax 2011 with 16-core server machines?

We have this crashing problem with assemblies only on the servers, not on the 1-CPU workstations. Unfortunately 7.1 didn't solve it for us.

[nPower_erik]

Hey Elpin,

That definitely was the issue. We had hardcoded a cap on
threads to spawn at some point but we thought the latest build
fixed that issue. We have a 16 core machine in our office that was having the same problem.

Anyways, did you try to reinstall any time lately? We overwrote the old 7.1 installer with a new version that should have had the fix.

The new build went up around October 9th.

Please let me know.

Erik

[joelhowe]

I have downloaded and installed 7.1 (note that I had to uninstall 7.0 and reinstall, not able to upgrade the current installation) and going back to previous files that wouldn't render when assemblies are part of the scene. Rendering errors are gone with 7.1.

Nice job nPower_guys!

Wondering if this was a threads issue for me, too? I have a single hexacore Intel CPU.

Joel

[elpin]

Hi Erik,

I just tested with the older files that had assemblies with multiple objects in them which were always crashing before and now they really don't crash. So I'm happy this is fixed and we can actually use assemblies again :-)

Unfortunately we still have a crashing problem. I'm not sure if it's related directly to assemblies but whenever we have many power nurbs objects in the scene (around 7000) it just crash during the objects update stage in the beginning of the render process. Funny thing is that it's quite random and crashes only on the first render since opening the scene. Basicaly everytime when 3dsmax has to tesselate all the nurbs into the desired quality during render there is about 70% probability that the scene with that many objects will crash. But if it doesn't crash this first time then it will never crash again until there is a camera change that makes the nurbs objects to re-tesselate for render.

Have you observed anything like this?

Hey Elpin,

That definitely was the issue. We had hardcoded a cap on
threads to spawn at some point but we thought the latest build
fixed that issue. We have a 16 core machine in our office that was having the same problem.

Anyways, did you try to reinstall any time lately? We overwrote the old 7.1 installer with a new version that should have had the fix.

The new build went up around October 9th.

Please let me know.

Erik

[nPower_erik]

Hey Elpin,

I think we could make the best use of our time if you sent us a file that reproduces the issue. Sounds like a tough one to track down but we would be happy to look into it if you sent us a test model.

Maybe the best idea would be to email me off of the forum and figure out a way to send the Max file. I'm guessing with 7000+ objects that its probably a little big.

Anyways let me know and hopefully we can get you straightened out. With that many objects, you may be running out of memory.

Erik Toraason
erik@integrityware.com
erik@npowersoftware.com

[elpin]

I'd like to send you the file but I'm afraid I can't. It contains sensitive data I'm not even supposed to talk about... And it needs to be pretty much the whole thing otherwise it doesn't crash anymore.

Maybe copying one object 7000 times would produce the same result? I give it a try as soon as I have some time and a free server and let you know.

[elpin]

Erik, some time ago I sent you a .max file consisting of a lot of objects which was crashing on our computers here. Did you have a time to look into the file yet?

Thanks,
David

[nPower_erik]

Hey Elpin,

Yes I did see your file. I tried it and was able to get a crash on my 6th attempt at different camera positions. It might be difficult to track down because there are so many objects in the scene but between now and the release we will take a closer look.

If anyone else is seeing similar behavior it would help to let us know.


Erik

[elpin]

Hello again,

I'd like to report that after installing the latest nPower Nurbs Viewer 8, the assemblies don't crash anymore! It was always a headache and sleep-less nights to render large files but now it's finaly trouble free.

Thank you nPower team for the great work with the version 8!

[nPower_Dave]

Thanks elpin! We appreciate the feedback.